I have to disagree. Capitalism is unsustainable by design as it requires endless growth. It is also unjust by design, as it is actually the weaponization of ownership for the extraction of unearned income. THAT is capitalism. Now, ofcourse, we can have free markets without capitalism! Capitalism is NOT a free market, but a parasitic overhead on the real economy. That is the important point. https://youtu.be/vDwMFRr-OTw?si=Lon0Ees4dOIYk-Qf
I watched your video. While I understand how you arrived at your conclusions, the assumption that capitalism always assume infinite GDP is based on existing common forms of capitalism and reliance on fossil fuels.
Making money from non fossil fuel sources and using that to support the communities as well as employees and the immediate family and improving environmental health is possible. Maybe you have never witnessed it.
2 Likes
I would say that both things are true to different degrees. While it is true that there is no such thing as sustainable capitalism (as distinct from commerce), it is also true that deomonizing capitalism doesnât have the intended effect of having folks rethink their ways. A great many people, who donât benefit from capitalism and are actively exploited by it, heavily IDENTIFY with capitalism. They see it as a part of who they are, and an attack on capitalism, to them, is an attack on them.
If a negative narrative around capitalism, climate change, social justice, or any of the other aspects of the polycrisis were changeable via this narrative approach, we would have seen some evidence of significant change from back in the 60s when this approach was first adopted. Itâs dead in the water and really shouldnât be the focus of anyoneâs energy beyond activating an already engaged base to action.
I would lean toward what Vlad suggests. Capitalism is crumbling. We are in its late stages where there are fewer and fewer people and resources that havenât already been exponentially exploiited. Weâre approaching a tipping point where the economic system will collapse due to there being insufficient buying power in the marketplace. Industries are beginning to feel it. The alcohol industry is experiencing it because drinking has become one of the cultural edifices in decline because young people donât have enough disposable income to afford it. Weâre seeing similar things with Air BnB, etc.
I would offer that our most productive path forward is building structures and relationships that can weather this transition from capitalism to whatever comes next (which I donât think we can know just yet). Resilience and regenerativeness are the keys. And in terms of narrative, I think the time of the polemic is over. Folks are innudated with propagandized takes and disinformation. Thereâs a tone to the way we press our ideas onto them that younger generations reject on impulse. Itâs tome for honest conversations that include a wide variety of voices that arenât usually heard. itâs time for the courage to understand that we are planting trees in whose shade we will never sit. We need to tend the soil and compost our âshitâ (a la Vanessa Andreotti, Hospicing Modernity) and make room for innovation to emerge from a nurtured relational ecology over time - because thatâs the only way it ever happens. This urgency is failing us. It is a panic that short-circuiting our ability to think and strategize with the innovation we need for these times.
How do we address the identity crisis that folks, en masses will experience with the collapse of capitalism? That is the question that I have
2 Likes
Sorry to butt in on this dialogue but while I agree that capitalism in its purest form, i.e. neoliberalism, is terminal, I would question the likelihood that the collapse of capitalism will open the way forward for anything but some totalitarian dystopia. We need to adapt the structures of capitalism and apply emergency brakes to CO2 emissions. That entails persuading many who support capitalism to co-operate. We donât need, want or benefit from collapse. I note your assertions but canât agree with them all.
2 Likes
It occurs to me that you are referring to some mom and pop own a candy shop business, but that is not capitalism. Capitalism is the perpetual reinvestment of capital to ever greater capital accumulation. C + P = Câ + P = C" etc ad infinitum. Unsustainable by definition. Moreover, I think that you misunderstood the video, as it is discusses how free markets are possible without capitalism and even more free in many aspects. That being said, economies can be pluralistic and include all kinds of decomodified modes of provisioning as well, as in a large non profit sector, besides a free market sector. Capitalism is NOT the real economy and unless you grasp that, you did not understand the video. Reading Andrew Sayerâs âwhy we canât afford the richâ may be helpful: Why We Canât Afford the Rich: Sayer, Andrew: 9781447320869: Amazon.com: Books
1 Like
Sure, for example âPatagoniaâ changed from a for profit corporation to steward ownership enterprise. That is no longer capitalism. Capitalist firms may discover that moving beyond capitalism is a great business innovation. After all, the absentee shareholders are just a parasitic overhead, no entrepreneurial function. The same goes for interest on credit: merely parasitic overhead, completely unnecessary. We could close down the stockmarket and have a global interest free mutual credit system with a well defined currency unit and that would be a great innovation, not a loss. Ending the Global Kleptocracy: Financial Innovation for the 21st Century | Journal of Critical Realism in Socio-Economics (JOCRISE) (gontor.ac.id)
1 Like
Recent polls suggest that people are sick and tired of capitalism anyway⌠moreover, the narrative of a post capitalist wellbeing economy is one of liberation and progress!!! 
3 Likes
The mom and pop business I had in mind operates in over 150 countries, has over 10,000 employees, has never had any redundancies, is building a hospital in Chennai, has opened several schools in India, supports rural revival in some of the most impoverished areas in India and Africa, provides support to women abused by husbands in Latin America, trades in local currencies in Africa heavily devalued against the dollar. I could go on.
Other than condemning capitalism in any form, what is your practical positive solution, and how will you persuade the world to play ball?
I have given practical solutions: 1. Correct the misrepresentation of money and organise a well defined, interest free global accounting system instead of a parasitic banking system. 2. Close the stockmarket and transform corporations to democratic organisations. Than, there is plenty of room for free entreprise, but not for rentier wealth extraction. If you appreciate the kind of social and ecological predicament that we are facing, I am sure this sounds very reasonable. But I wouldnât call it capitalism, but free, social and democratic entreprise in a wellbeing economy. I am afraid that the world will only learn from ever more devastating crises, tragically. To âpersuadeâ capitalists that their âpassive rentier incomeâ is utterly parasitic and unsustainable is a very difficult thing to do. Thatâs why I call for criminalisation⌠money junkies canât help themselves. And as UN rapporteur de Schutter observes: âwe are killing the planet while enriching elitesâ. The latter will not easily be persuaded. However, as a majority of people is sick and tired of capitalism, we will need some kind of transformative revolution. Very difficult. Power, or playing ball, is not evenly distributed and the systemic concentration of wealth and power is written into laws and protected by state violence. That in essence, is fascism. The merging of state and corporate power. And that is a VERY difficult situation. Please have a look at the fundamental structure of the global banking system: https://youtu.be/9YwEf-VeC8c?si=QIIWkIRLcJlNLNwz
3 Likes
Dear, thank you, by the way, for using the metaphor of âplaying ballâ. Because, letâs consider the âballâ, the medium of exchange. At this time, the âballâ is rigged. The medium of exchange is not properly defined, resulting in an unfair game. The game is fundamentally rigged. Please consider this: Home - Money Systems Transparency Alliance (moneytransparency.com)
1 Like
I agree rentier capitalism should be outlawed. However, that wonât happen until citizens are aware of the parasitic problem. They wonât hear it from the media so I believe regenerative movements like WEALL and other global movements need to collaborate on communications to boost awareness and get on media agendas, and educators.
WEALL is aware of this and should accelerate discussions with other organisations.
Iâve written about this in 2 articles: Speak with One Voice pt1and pt2One Voice part 2 - collaboration network.
Most of the regenerative movements have a lot of common ground, so this should be possible with some effort.
p.s. Iâve added MSTA to my list
2 Likes
Agree. What might emerge from a collapsed system could indeed be worse than what we have now. Lately, Iâve learned of the two loops model of systems change. It makes me think of the roles we all play in the hospice/Death/composting of the existing system and the emergence of of a new system.
@JWGCox I went to read your Medium article and hit a membership wall.
@Koen These policy recommendations might makes sense to individuals steeped in knowledge of the operation of our world systems, Iâm guessing that many people are doing the best they can, feel overwhelmed, worry about their own situation, and/or just donât care (are watching cat videos of sporting events).
In todayâs short-term, balkanized, and fractured information landscape (24 hour news, social media, AI generated misinformation, etc.) I 100% agree that regenerative movements are nowhere near the radar screen of the average human in a neoliberal capitalist economy - the âdeveloped worldâ.
In my opinion this movement needs localized âpockets of coherenceâ (Otto Scharmer?) with multi decade time horizons funded by philanthropists willing to yield control to an a messy emerging system that will likely diminish their own influence/power (Anand Giridharas). And, savvy attention grabbing marketers/influencers to play the game of attention harvesting to turn peoples eyes to the potential of these movements. Western Water Girl.
I think of the term âAttraction not promotionâ, knitting together the disparate movements and projects you referred to and making them"Findable" and relevant to the âWestern consumerâ.
This region.earth map facilitated by Spherical Labs is one resource.
TY for engaging.
2 Likes
Hi Wayne. Here is a free version: Speak with One Voice - Part1 | www.orbissacri.org
Part 2 The One Voice Collaboration Network and Principles | www.orbissacri.org
1 Like
I apologize if this response wasnât intended to be directed toward me. Iâm still learning how to navigate this platform and Iâm not sure how the replies correlate to the message displayed. But in case it was directed toward me, I would clarify that I in no way implied that thecollapse of capitalism would herald a way forward. Quite the opposite. Itâs collapse, along with every mitigation effort described to prop it up on its dying legs, no matter how necessary as a triage-like stopgap, is inevitable.
Whatâs also clear is that âconvincing people of the truthâ hasnât worked to create the necessary system change in over 60 years of dedicated activism on the part of numerous well-resource organizations. Weâve had the answeres - or at least some promising models to experiment with - for decades.
The issue remains wide-spread adoption of literally anything that could lead to system change. Promotional campaigns donât work. Fear-mogering campaigns donât work. In fact, all narrative approaches weâve used to this pont have failed to bring about the kind of change weâve been attempting for over 60 years.
Whe you say that we need to âAdapt the structures of capitalism and apply emergency brakes to CO2 emisions,â you describing a decades-long struggle that has yet to succeed, nor show anything beyond performative advancements in signed agreements that few countires hold themselves accountable to.
Bayo Akomolafe says âOur approach to the crisis is part of the crisis.â The collapse of capitalism is a mathematical inevitability. A totalitarian hellscape is a probable outcome that no adaptation of capitalism could possibly prevent. So now what? In that reality, all of our elegantly derived solutions remain on the shelf helping no one. It would behoove us to plan with these eventualities in mind. We canât assume a future of readily available unlimited electrical power to run the servers of even this platform of connection. What becomes of supply chains? Human rights would be unenforcable.
So what can we do now to prepare, to become systemically resilient and regenerative? The answers donât tend to be large abstraction about the meta-economy. They tend to be intensely local, neighbour to neighbour, land and food oriented.
Iâm not saying that we shouldnât work absolutely every avenue of possible advancement toward system change. Just that we should keep in mind the circumstantial reality while we do so and plan accordingly.
3 Likes
This is a very interesting conversation. In response to Kevin and to everyone here, to ground my own approach I use the 3-Fold Model for defining capitalism, which I describe here: https://open.substack.com/pub/vladbunea/p/the-3-fold-definition-of-capitalism
On this note, when some folks recoil at criticism of capitalism they usually have specific values they react to, such as: meritocracy, market economy, prosperity, efficiency etc. all of which have been made possible, allegedly, by capitalism. I think if the conversation includes all these values, and presents alternative worldviews, alternative values systems (centered on wellbeing, sufficiency, empathy, planetary boundaries etc.) folks will be very receptive at decoupling their values from capitalism.
It is also imperative to be able to name the system that has created the crises. It is okay to normalize the criticism, as Keon rightfully does. While at the same time we enlarge the conversation with specifics about values.
PS: FYI, these two films are quite powerful at rocking the value system: Finding the Money (2023), Yintah (2024)
For some reason I can only post 2 links per post.
1 Like
Dear Vlad, I hope you find some time to read the following article carefully. In fact, the fundamental systemic problem with the monetary system is readily identifiable from sound control systems engineering. I think that solving the monetary system first, by rendering it âbibo passiveâ, or sustainable by design, is an absolute priority that we should focus on together! The Beast of Compounding
1 Like